Post by mclucky on Nov 28, 2009 7:19:02 GMT -5
Hey guys. Fired up by a minor MTT score this morning I have been doing a bit of thinking about the Syndicate – what we’re trying to do and why it’s important / different etc. This might be a bit of a ramble but I hope not and I hope it’s useful in sparking some though and some action within the group.
The first thing I thought about was – hey I have a lot of demands on my time aside from playing poker and by that I mean the stuff that wraps around poker and if you are anything like me, you need to make sure you get some real value from this initiative – payback on the effort we all expect to put in.
Right now I use at least 5 different MTT strategy forums, a bunch of training sites, poker associations, staking sites, and all the usual tracking and simulation software. Add to that all the usual social networking activity, reading articles, coaching, actually playing poker, session reviews and - well life stuff - and there’s not a lot of bandwidth left for new initiatives. Maybe I’m crap at time management but I really had to think twice before I was able to commit to joining another group of poker people and expecting to be able to give it a reasonable amount of attention.
When I talked to Steve the other day I realized pretty quickly that he is on to something here. Something that is different and as far as I’m aware really hasn’t been done before. Sure there are hundreds if not thousands of formal and informal poker networks and they all have a common theme. Usually they focus on poker theory based around specific hand examples – useful and probably essential but not ground breaking.
Ground breaking would be if we could design and build a model that would allow us to focus on the really important elements of successful MTT strategy in a way that no one has done before – that is – by building a framework that pulls together the collective wisdom of successful players and coaches across all forums, all training sites and all published content. The key for me in this is not linking everything together – that would be an impossible and probably a –EV exercise. No the key is to build a model that a) ranks and prioritizes what’s important, b) allows us to measure ourselves against those factors and c) provides an action framework based on our scores / progress linked to specific wisdom picked from the massive glut that is out there.
Something clicked for me when I read bishamonten’s post on the AQ hand. We’re all doing lots of good stuff and really thinking about the game and about specific situations and in fact this is how a lot of people are teaching MTT strategy today – by reviewing a bunch of hands and situations and commenting on the best lines and why. Great let’s do that but let’s also step up a level. None of this activity is directed towards specific targets that stack up against what it takes to be a successful player. It’s like learning how to operate each and every individual instrument on a jumbo jet and then expecting to able to fly the thing!
Bishamonten’s post is for me an extremely interesting hand / situation but not for the obvious reasons – (by the way the link to the P5s thread is fascinating). My favorite is Brsavage’s response -
brsavage (United States)
“I have a chemical reaction in my brain that prohibits me from doing anything but auto shoving in this spot. If I even attempted to fold my body would have instant seizures/convulsions. "
I know exactly what he means by this but I also cannot dispute the equally compelling arguments against shoving in this spot.
The point is, and the reason I think this hand is so important for us is that it illustrates perfectly what Tommy Angelo is talking about when he says - we spend the most time & effort thinking about the decisions that matter the least - not just in poker but in life. What he's getting at here is that amongst a whole bunch of proven MTT professionals no one can agree on the right answer - it's so close in terms of which side to pitch for - push or fold that it really doesn't matter that much. It's in what Tommy calls the 'grey area' - those situations and decisions which have neither a large +ve or -ve EV and the 'right' choice is a matter of personal preference rather than sound poker theory. The main thing to take from this is that no one actually ‘knows’ what the right choice is – i.e. there isn’t one!
I think has big implications for us in what we are trying to do here in the Syndicate. We need to identify those things ( situations / skills / concepts) that really make a difference in becoming a successful player. I think this is why the 'model' that Steve is hoping we can develop is so important. If we can even come close to getting that right (no one has done this) then we can develop much more quickly as players because we'll know what things to work on in our game based on a consensus of priorities – presumably based on which will make the biggest improvement – probably measured in MTT ROI% over time.
This isn’t easy – if it was someone would have done it before now. And even if we don’t achieve it – even if we come close and find a way of measuring our play against that model and most important find ways of helping each other plug the resulting perceived gaps in our game we’ll be a long way ahead of where we are now.
Let’s make a real effort to get to base camp with a model, a set of ranked key factors and a measurement framework in the next few weeks. I have some thoughts on how to go about that and I’m happy to share these next week. I don’t even know if it can be done but I think it’s a really cool objective. I’m also to happy to stfu and listen – I know there’s a lot of talent in this group.
McLucky
The first thing I thought about was – hey I have a lot of demands on my time aside from playing poker and by that I mean the stuff that wraps around poker and if you are anything like me, you need to make sure you get some real value from this initiative – payback on the effort we all expect to put in.
Right now I use at least 5 different MTT strategy forums, a bunch of training sites, poker associations, staking sites, and all the usual tracking and simulation software. Add to that all the usual social networking activity, reading articles, coaching, actually playing poker, session reviews and - well life stuff - and there’s not a lot of bandwidth left for new initiatives. Maybe I’m crap at time management but I really had to think twice before I was able to commit to joining another group of poker people and expecting to be able to give it a reasonable amount of attention.
When I talked to Steve the other day I realized pretty quickly that he is on to something here. Something that is different and as far as I’m aware really hasn’t been done before. Sure there are hundreds if not thousands of formal and informal poker networks and they all have a common theme. Usually they focus on poker theory based around specific hand examples – useful and probably essential but not ground breaking.
Ground breaking would be if we could design and build a model that would allow us to focus on the really important elements of successful MTT strategy in a way that no one has done before – that is – by building a framework that pulls together the collective wisdom of successful players and coaches across all forums, all training sites and all published content. The key for me in this is not linking everything together – that would be an impossible and probably a –EV exercise. No the key is to build a model that a) ranks and prioritizes what’s important, b) allows us to measure ourselves against those factors and c) provides an action framework based on our scores / progress linked to specific wisdom picked from the massive glut that is out there.
Something clicked for me when I read bishamonten’s post on the AQ hand. We’re all doing lots of good stuff and really thinking about the game and about specific situations and in fact this is how a lot of people are teaching MTT strategy today – by reviewing a bunch of hands and situations and commenting on the best lines and why. Great let’s do that but let’s also step up a level. None of this activity is directed towards specific targets that stack up against what it takes to be a successful player. It’s like learning how to operate each and every individual instrument on a jumbo jet and then expecting to able to fly the thing!
Bishamonten’s post is for me an extremely interesting hand / situation but not for the obvious reasons – (by the way the link to the P5s thread is fascinating). My favorite is Brsavage’s response -
brsavage (United States)
“I have a chemical reaction in my brain that prohibits me from doing anything but auto shoving in this spot. If I even attempted to fold my body would have instant seizures/convulsions. "
I know exactly what he means by this but I also cannot dispute the equally compelling arguments against shoving in this spot.
The point is, and the reason I think this hand is so important for us is that it illustrates perfectly what Tommy Angelo is talking about when he says - we spend the most time & effort thinking about the decisions that matter the least - not just in poker but in life. What he's getting at here is that amongst a whole bunch of proven MTT professionals no one can agree on the right answer - it's so close in terms of which side to pitch for - push or fold that it really doesn't matter that much. It's in what Tommy calls the 'grey area' - those situations and decisions which have neither a large +ve or -ve EV and the 'right' choice is a matter of personal preference rather than sound poker theory. The main thing to take from this is that no one actually ‘knows’ what the right choice is – i.e. there isn’t one!
I think has big implications for us in what we are trying to do here in the Syndicate. We need to identify those things ( situations / skills / concepts) that really make a difference in becoming a successful player. I think this is why the 'model' that Steve is hoping we can develop is so important. If we can even come close to getting that right (no one has done this) then we can develop much more quickly as players because we'll know what things to work on in our game based on a consensus of priorities – presumably based on which will make the biggest improvement – probably measured in MTT ROI% over time.
This isn’t easy – if it was someone would have done it before now. And even if we don’t achieve it – even if we come close and find a way of measuring our play against that model and most important find ways of helping each other plug the resulting perceived gaps in our game we’ll be a long way ahead of where we are now.
Let’s make a real effort to get to base camp with a model, a set of ranked key factors and a measurement framework in the next few weeks. I have some thoughts on how to go about that and I’m happy to share these next week. I don’t even know if it can be done but I think it’s a really cool objective. I’m also to happy to stfu and listen – I know there’s a lot of talent in this group.
McLucky
